1992-2009 INTERVIEW WITH JIANG ZHI

LI: Shall we start with the year 1992, with your painting?

JIANG: I don’t think it’s necessary.

L: Why you think it’s unnecessary? Because it doesn’t have anything to do with what you are doing right now?

J: At that time I didn’t have any concept of the contemporary art. I was completely a dumb student of CAFA.

L: Are you influenced by any albums of paintings or drawings, or by any people? Can you remember that?

J: I can’t remember any more. I don’t really recall many names of today’s artists, let alone those previous ones.

L: What’s the difference, in your opinion, between the arts education that time and what you are going to do right now?

J: For school is ok. At that time, we all went to school to read. Those basis classes at CAFA were easy for the students. If they were qualified and got accepted by CAFA, those classes wouldn’t be a problem for them. There might be a further improvement at college, but I don’t really see the points of making too many improvements though.

L: So what do you usually do during classes?

J: I personally think the engraving department is pretty good. Except for the normal classes, e.g. for copperplate or for lithograph we usually had one or two days class, when we were taught how to grind a stone or how to roll the printing ink, and that’s it. For the next one or two months we had nothing to do.

L:

J: When I graduated in the year 1995, I made a series of engravings.

L: You did that when for graduation? Did you also make any before?

J: Yes, but only for the classes, as homework.

L: You were enrolled in 1991. I heard, at that time Zhijie QIU was in the lead?

J: Yes, he was a respectable student from higher grade.

L: Why was he in the lead?

J: I don’t know, neither. At that time he was in the third grade. Maybe he already had a small circle around him. There was a cafeteria opposite to CAFA. As I registered, though I was old enough by then, my father came from our hometown and sent me to school. Then we went to this little cafeteria and ate. Suddenly a group of people came in and sat at a table nearby. I saw one of them pouring out words in a steady flow. Basically everybody was listening to him. At that time I did appreciate that kind of temperament. I’m not talking about the temperament of leadership, but of erudition and dynamic.

L: What were they talking about?

J: I forgot. I couldn’t understand totally that time. He might be talking about his glass work. Later on, as he made the big glass, we helped him with the coloring. We filled the finished frame with colors. That’s how we knew each other. He would recommend the books he read to others. Before that I hadn’t known much about those books, so it was a new vision.

L: What books were you reading at that time?

J: Roland Barthes, Nomadism, Foucault, etc. and maybe also about Russian Formalism.

L: When did he (Jiezhi QIU) go to Peking University and study with Jiaying CHEN? In 1995?

J: Yes, it was before 1995.

(Looking at Zhi JIANG’s graduation works)

L: So here are your graduation works, do you still have them now?

J: Yes, but they are all creased.

L: I think you should mount them nicely when you have time, they are all terrific works.

J: I don’t think anybody now has mastered this technic. (joking)

L: Really?

J: I came into this technic accidentally. For copperplate you could hardly make these effects. Then I wondered to how make it easier. At that time CAFA’s development methods were quite undependable.

L: What do you mean by that?

J: That is to say that CAFA couldn’t provide the suitable conditions to develop on copperplate.

L: Zhejiang Academy of Fine Arts was already quite outstanding by then.

J: Yes, they all used those traditional tools.

L: What kind of traditional tools for example?

J: After you copied one picture, there was a layer of carbon powder. The so-called development that time was actually to press this layer of carbon powder onto the copperplate, so there would be a light shadow left. The etching came afterwards. This was quite unreliable, because it was real vague.

L: It should be quite unique then?

J: Yes it is. It is more suitable for those Chinese paintings, which want to represent an artistic conception of old and vague images.

L: In the nineties, the engraving was already technically faultless? (Through your new) complete development methods, it grew better and was very concrete.

J: Yes, if the conditions were provided, there should be no problem. The engraving technics, after all, are typography.

L: You stopped making engravings then? After your graduation, you didn’t continue to do this any more, did you?

J: No.

1996

L: What makes me feel incredible is that you seemed to be writing a novel in 1996. How did you come to the idea, from engravings to novels, there isn’t any connections indeed.

J: I have always liked writing, since childhood. I think, at that time it might also have something to do with the general atmosphere in China. It seemed that everybody’s writing something. (At least I think so.) Either poems or novels, because it was true for the eighties.

L: In the eighties, it was really like this?

J: Yes. I was a teenager that time.

L: Ning OU was already a poet by then. He was writing poems.

J: I didn’t feel like being an artist after graduation. There were not many exhibitions in Beijing at that time. When we gathered around, we usually just drank or read some foreign materials. We didn’t start with the creation. I only wanted to find a way of creation, so I found writing, because it doesn’t cost any money.

L: You came to Beijing in 1996?

J: I came here in the second half of 1995. Right after my graduation.

L: But you didn’t stay long here, right?

J: Yes, til the end of 1998.

L: Why you didn’t choose Shanghai, then? In the early nineties, the contemporary art has already begun in Shanghai. There were also galleries by then. Have you ever thought of moving into a more professional phase of art?

J: I didn’t even know galleries in 1998.

L: Really? Then why you moved to Shenzhen? I have this illusion that you have always been a Shenzhen artist.

J: Because the first job I found after graduation was in Shenzhen. It was a magazine office. The funny part was, I told them that I could go to work and the chef editor said I should come right away. They said after my arrival they would give me a ticket to Beijing, and I should be attending a meeting there. I said this was not economical, why shouldn’t I go to Beijing directly instead. Why should I head to Shenzhen first? Why should I shuttle between the north and south two times! But I already had some necessaries transferred to Shenzhen by then. I said, it was better, if I go to Beijing directly. They said that made sense, so I should go from here to Beijing. I thought it was just a meeting, after that I could turn back. But as I arrived I knew that was actually not a meeting, they said they wanted me to set up a journalist station in Beijing and they were contacting the Chaoyang district government. They would provide me with a small room and I should first stay here to set up the journalist station. In the following years I didn’t return to Shenzhen.

L: But you were paid, what happened after that?

J: The salary they gave me was quite much for graduates.

L: Really? Several Thousands?

J: Not that much. The governors of Chaoyang district earned only five or six hundreds that time.

L: How much did you earn in 1996?

J: At that time, one to two thousands. Later on, an acquainted alumnus abroad received an assignment to make the floor plan of a golf course into a copperplate. Because it was very expensive to do this abroad, if he could get it done in China, he would benefit from the price difference. So he let us do it and I earned monthly five to six thousands.

L: It was quite lucrative then!

J: We made the floor plan of the golf course for them. It didn’t take long, about three or four months.

L: Etching?

J: No. Copperplate.

L: Between 1996 and 1998 you were all writing in Beijing, right? Did you do much about your art works?

J: Actually I started in the second half of 1996. Early 1997, I already finished the Drawer in the Matter (photograph).

L: I always thought that, you started with photography and videos at the same time, but for the limitation of technique or technics you didn’t begin with the videos that time?

J: Videos? I started as well, in 1997, the same year.

L: So you did photography in 1996 and videos in 1997?

J: No. Actually I bought one camera in 1996. I remembered I went to Panjiayuan together with Zhijie QIU and bought the camera at the end of 1996. Then I tried to shoot. In 1997, I made several pieces. For the videos I almost started at the same time.

L: It was technically flawless for photography at that time. The technics were quite improved and complete. What did you use for videos in 1996 and 1997? What was the type of your camera that time?

J: I used the normal video tapes, the kind what people used at home. The camera I used for Suspect Objects and Fly, Fly (1997) might be Panasonic M-900.

L: How did you come to the idea of using the media video at that time? The machine was not easy to find, right?

J: To find the machine was really not easy, that’s true. At that time I was influenced by two friends. Zhijie QIU was enthusiastically advancing the video art and Fudong YANG, the one or two years before he set off for Shanghai, we were together frequently and talked a lot. He was talking about films and his dream to make films every day. Under this kind of influences, it was natural to come to the idea to use this method.

L: So what do you think, is the difference between you making photography and videos? Is there any discrepancy or connection?

J: I think both of them are quite natural. I don’t really consider the difference between them. For example, for Fly, Fly it was hard to use static objects to make, so you will naturally think of using dynamic ones like video.

L: So it’s to say, the association static and dynamic conveys is different. For example sometimes you are watching a video and do you think that you could actually also use one photo to express it? Especially when you watch those slow downed clips, absolutely replaceable by a steady shot?

J: It depends whether the author wants the concept of time. If the element of time concept is inclusive, it might be within one shot. But it needs the timeliness.

L: Does Fly, Fly need this kind of time span?

J: From the beginning of the flight, til the end, when it lands on the pillow, it’s a process. And it could not be achieved by a piece of photo.

L: You think photography is irreplaceable?

J: Correct.

L: You think what cannot be replaced is the time span, so what about the contents? Like to watch a video, there are expressions or associations of narrations. Does here exist any extension of narrations?

J: What do you mean by extension of narrations?

L: Dynamic things will always stimulate the association of a story, while static things let you come to other associations. It’s different. When you are making dynamic works, do you have such consideration, like to tell a story, or do you have the idea of telling it according to the clues of a story.

J: I think it’s not totally like to tell a story, because for those dynamic things, they are done with the continuity of time. For example, you could also catch one’s shaking by taking a photo. You make the shadow a little bit vague and shapeless, make people think that someone’s shaking, for example some partial abstract feelings. But if you use videos, these could be expressed more clearly. You could see every moment the shape of shaking exactly. And Photography can’t do this. But let’s take a simple example. Some parts of dynamic things are real subtle, just as Fudong Yang’s films, though a person is staying there, hardly making any movements, it is different from photos. Though he or she is standing there still, the time elapsed. There is something that keeps coming out continuously.

L: What is it?

J: I can’t tell clearly what that is, but it must be able to be expressed in some way approximately. Those things are formed while time elapsed, like emotions, or introspective discoveries or experiences… Whether a clotted movement is placed in the time sequence or not, is totally different. Of course you cannot say it is a sculpture.

L: Right. Just now I was about to talk about sculptures and paintings. The feelings you mentioned about reality, for example, videos could be finer and more real. So how do you identify the subtle differences between realistic paintings and realistic sculptures or photography? I always think there are some kinds of connections between them. But these connections are not conceptual. Are they determined by their media or their creators? The shaking you talked about just now was quite interesting to me. You were saying, to make the photo unreal so that you could feel the shaking. But there are people, who will simulate a virtual environment or outer space while making videos, or to say, they delete those realistic elements on purpose. The theme of your Fly, Fly is not a person; it is rather like an illusion. Is it a discussion about the expression of videos? Or is it to say that videos could be replaced as a median, like we could consider using novels instead, so long as the readers could get the feelings while reading.

J: What you talked about just now, is actually how a work finds its medium.

L: Yes, that question also exists. That’s what I’ve been thinking about--- the irreplaceability of every medium. For example, we couldn’t say that videos could easily replace paintings or pictures could replace videos. I’m a little confused in this, but also very interested on the other hand. Each medium has its own interesting characteristic, which has its own imitability. It looks like that it has buried other media, but it exists in its own unique way. Because it is related to how an artist creates and switches media. When he cannot finish with one medium, he would switch to another.

You mentioned the influences from Zhijie QIU and Fudong YANG, it is for sure. But I’m thinking, only because of this would be convincing enough to explain why you decide to use videos and photographs to create. Why would you use these media? I assume part of it might because of your friends circle. At that time, an external frame was constructed--- the television and other media were rising. Were you also influenced by this?

J: Just now we talked about making films. Actually many people have this dream. We said Fudong YANG has always had the dream of making films, so do others. Videos have provided the convenience to fulfill your dream within a modest budget. Is that what you meant by external frame? This is actually synthesis, because you can express your former conceptions of picture and sound. There’s much room for you to bring your talents into full play and it is obviously very appealing.

L: If we discuss the possibility from an internal angle, for example oil paintings, engravings, photographs and videos, will you discuss their necessity? Or there’s no need for this?

J: I never thought of this expressly, because I used them quite naturally at that time. I might think of using sculptures. In my opinion, photographs are much alike videos. The only difference is that you use a camera for photographs and a frame for videos. It is familiar to me. Why you talked about the necessity of media and tools?

L: Because I think there are similarities between media, where they could learn from and copy each other. Or we can say, the appearance of a medium is definitely related to the author. For example, I’ve been taking photos, but photographs can’t help me in some ways (like what you’ve said about the more realistic expressions). To complete a clearer conception we could only use videos. But I think, videos here is kind of an extension of photographs. Sometimes I make a video, when it should have been a painting, because I’m more interested in the presence of the body and the daily alteration in the process of drawing. I think all the creators were faced with the same question in the past. If you are a photographer, you have to make sure that you just shoot photos. If you are a painter, then it must be clear that you draw. But this problem did not exist any more in the nineties or after the ideological trend in 1985. You can do artistic creations at your will and with any media.

Still, there should be a clear clue inside. As an author or an artist, what do you think of the necessity of using media? For me, it’s quite interesting to know, how to solve the problem of creation through a viewfinder, a canvas, or a field. Because in this way, you can soon find out the source of the artistic creations, for example I’m talking about the origin of the body, or I’m talking about something else.

J: Well, I think it’s different. Just now you said that if one draws a painting, he or she will continue improving it, by adding or erasing something, and in fact a dynamic has come into form during this process. But this is individual. This is what he or she wants. In the videos, all the changes of the expressions of the character or the changes of surroundings are similar to the former; it is searching for the changing experiences. Take the self-experience for example, you are shooting an object, the changes of the position are similar to those of the paintings, for instance, to turn around a bit, or to raise your head, or to consider if instead of crying you can express the feelings in another way…

L: I think there is a relation of subjectivity and objectivity between this and paintings, because for paintings you (as artist) are subjective, you don’t need to communicate with anyone.

J: I think for paintings you need to deal with the materials, like with the physical attributes of the colors and the gloss of the canvas. Furthermore, you have to consider how to use the brush in a proper way to match those attributes. There are also impersonal conditions you have to cooperate with between paintings and the painter.

L: That’s for sure. As an artist you have to make full use of the physical attributes of the colors and canvas. But the object of your creation, be it a thing or a person, is also your material. When making videos, you have to compromise on the camera, the scene and people etc. During the process, I won’t think that the subjectivity and objectivity would be the same.

J: You are actually implying that the subjectivity of videos is less than that of paintings?

L: Yes, I think so. Of course I won’t say that its subjective consciousness is weak, but during the creation process there are many objective and sudden happenings. This is back to the condition movies, which have expressed the objectivity of creation to a full strength.

J: I think it’s mutual. For most of the time, when you are out of the track, it is actually a good time to develop something new. Sometimes you do things according to the inertia, which happens to be inert. In fact as an artist, you would expect those sudden things some time. Maybe it is the same with Fudong YANG, because in this case, it would stimulate his creation and his thoughts, which will bring him something he never has or feels before.

L: I think the topic of mutuality is quite interesting. When you draw or make a video, the territory sometimes will play a relative important role. For example drawing requires a quiet space, while making videos or photographs you may need different spaces, which will lead the artists to different expressions. The inspiration from the environment or some certain elements while making a drawing seldom happens. This has something to do with what you mentioned before, that the artists would expect that the surroundings can bring him sudden happenings. Paintings for me are subjective, however, the creation of videos is not the same, it would even depend more on some contrived matters.

J: The things from outside and the things in your mind, for me, they are not that different at all, fundamentally. Because the difference between what we see and what is in your mind is in fact not that huge, of course there are some differences, but they are the same in the end.

L: Why that?

J: Because the brain processes these images or so-called matters. That is to say, what you see must be sent to the brain through your eyes. Though your experiences are accumulated by other stimulations, the mechanism is the same; the formed tools are the same. That many artists could have breakthroughs in their career may because that they form sudden things consciously in their mind, while others may need some external help, like some scenarios or scenes, or maybe with the stimulations from accidents, in some cases it could be achieved by the brain itself. You said that the territory of painters or those who are making dynamics is different, right?

L: Maybe it would be less.

J: I don’t think so. I think it’s almost the same between the two. The territory you come across from external world and the one you have inside of you should be similar after all.

L: But for me, the internal world is consistent. As an individual, no matter how the territory changes, you always have to make judgments and choices. Color or gloss? You have to choose. What I’m discussing is, the external world is totally different. That is, whether your interior territory is the same or not, the inspirations from the external world would not be the same. The influence it gives you is completely different.

J: I think it depends on what the person wants. It is not to say that the external influence is that huge. For example, two people sitting in the same plane and looking out of the window. The view they have could be completely different. One might think of something terrible and is sweating all the time, while the other is quite relaxed. So the view they have would not be the same.

L: We could put your example forward as a hypothesis. For example I want to draw a picture of the shore, I could do it in several ways. One is, I could draw a sketch, and bring it back to the studio to finish it. But we imagine that at this time, an accident happened, for example someone jumps into the river. Will it influence the painter? Will he also draw this, or simply ignore it and still only draw the scenery? Because this happened in the 16th century, when the artists wanted to present a better view, they would rather erase some other buildings. But for videos, this couldn’t happen. They will record this completely. Like when I am filming the shore, and suddenly someone jumps into the river, it isn’t up to me, whether to record this or not, because it is already on the tape and has been recorded. This is what I meant by external factors. But as a creator, if I don’t want the accident, I will of course have it cut off. But in fact, I didn’t cut if off. This is what I said about those unpredictable things that video may bring along. Well, paintings could be more subjective. I think it is a question about being more subjective. Some people say documentary films are a real reflection of our society. Of course the “real” here is quoted. However, in many aspects, videos can really achieve this. But of course it is determined by man, which means that it would be subjective in the end anyway, because people decide what to film and what not to, and what to be cut off, and what not to.

J: Actually, generally speaking, we are all unpredictable. The so-called prediction is according to our former experiences and images. But can you really memorize all the things happened in that view? I don’t think so. What I’ve said just now sounds recondite, but in fact it is easy to understand. How could you know all aspects of one thing? The world is boundlessly open. Each of us could only see part of it.

L: That’s true. Other fluencies and passes on to me are more like a game. For example, the signature and minor descriptions of paintings both have profound meanings inside. Every element of a painting could be examined and studied in detail, because there’s only one possibility for this static expression, while videos could have the possibility to record those things, which we believe to be real, because these two media are not the same. One records the subjectivity of the artist, puts all the information within one picture, while the other is to take a camera, knowing what to shoot. I know what I want to film and I know that I have this kind of subjectivity. So the start point is subjective. When you hold the apparatus, is no longer objective, because to find the view it is not through the camera, but through my eyes, brain, and heart together. But the camera knows its own limitation. You have to consider its size, timing and viewfinder. This is what I meant by the relation of subjectivity and objectivity.

J: They all have this phenomenon, that’s for sure. The territory question we talked about just now is, in fact, the influence from outside. I still want to say that the mechanism from external and internal world is more or less the same.

L: Then why you don’t go engravings and paintings now? Your works are almost all about apparatuses and on-site. Videos and pictures, like you mentioned, should all be available. But I want to ask you why you don’t use those media?

J: Maybe you’re right. Paintings are more difficult for now. Like you said, to paint you have to take responsibility for every single detail, because you sign at the end. For videos, like documentary films are getting forward with its own. It is possible that the video is even better than your expectation. It is already there. For example, a dog comes out suddenly, you might not have thought about that, but just this could make the film more interesting. In paintings, you have to take the full responsibility, while for documentary films ore videos you don’t have to. I think, in many cases the creation depends on luck.

L: Or to say depends on uncertainty. When you are doing this, you’re inner-prepared

J: Yes, there must be some preparation. If paintings could solve this problem, I would want to draw, too. It would be fine if I would not have to take the full responsibility while I could. I think Hui Zhang does this well. He has found a good way.

L: Just now we talked about the creation medium and its origin. Now we should focus on the contents. For you where did you get the idea of Fly, Fly, from your novel or anywhere else? Some of your later works look a bit similar to news report, or about social news. There are social elements inside. Because for works like Fly, Fly the feelings you have inside are quite simple and not influenced by those information. Basically it’s the style from CAFA.

J: Are you asking why it has such contents?

L: Yes. It looks like a narration. But what exactly it tells is also hard to recognize.

J: Maybe that suits the circumstances at that time quite well. I just graduated that time and did have a sensitive feeling about the future and life. I was thinking if I was being too restrained, that I could not reach freedom. Now I’m also enjoying thinking about these questions. But Fly, Fly is a bit pessimistic, hard to get rid of and feels lost. I did it in this way. So it is in a simple room, kind of like destiny that it lands on the pillow of yesterday and not on the other. Neither does it reach the sky of freedom. On the pillow it says “Good Night!” meaning he could only save his illusions for his dreams.

L: We talked about news reports just now. Do you dislike it?

J: No, I don’t. I had been a reporter for several years after all.

L: By saying news reports, I mean the method of reports, because now many works includes hot discussed news topics. For example your Laden, it makes me feel like something between art and news. For quite a time you were a journalist, does it have much influence on your creations? I’m quite interested in this.

J: Yes. It does influence me a lot.

L: Fly, Fly focuses more on the inner conditions and later on the social expressions. These are two different phrases.

J: In fact, I am very lucky that I went to a news media company, which is mainly about culture and policies, not much about prevalence. It was a good opportunity for me. If it were a sheer news reports editorial office, the atmosphere would be totally different. And if you went into a quite difficult place right after graduation, it is actually hard to get away. But this place happened to be a mixture of culture, art, and current happenings… it is similar to the education we had when we were small. In colleges we are not sensitive to the current events and policies, because the government would not have you involved. The less you know, the better. But if you are in the media, you would know much more. Though only a tiny bit has been reported, you could get to know much.

L: For example?

J: For example the collective demonstrations and protests. We received relevant articles quite often but hardly published any. Another example is, some critics wrote comments on national policies or on international relationships. If they failed to meet the policy, it wouldn’t be published either. But we as journalists could read that.

L: That is to say you could reach something special that massive media wouldn’t report.

J: While reading is like making up lessons.

L: Why?

J: Because when you were in high school or in college, you didn’t get in touch with the society. The internet that time was bad as well. You couldn’t know much about the reality and about the truth. But in that condition, you would also not think other way round. At that time, most of our writers came from Hongkong or Taiwan. We were not lack of good critics. In the process, to learn their thinking angles and depth is to make up lessons for me.

L: This way of thinking didn’t exist when you were in the school?

J: Because at that time there was no conception of sociology at all. So now I’m not so willing to see those works about the social reality. In my opinion, it is too easy and has been repeated thousand times by others already. It has become a mainstream of the social opinions. Like to buy shares, if too many people buy the same kind, it must go bad then. Indeed it is lack of the ability of independent thinking. The whole society has focused on those topics, like laborer problems, city and land divergence…

L: This topic is really interesting, and it’s also a question I’ve been thinking of recently. When art enters the social topics, the angles it offers, are irreplaceable. Or else, it won’t be necessary. Now can you talk about why you filmed Firefinger? It is obviously a very sensitive topic. To some extent, we are all connected with Firefinger somehow. When we read his poem, is there a clue for both to find? I’d like to hear your opinion.

J: It was actually quite easy at that time. Sometimes I would joke with others, say that people all have a sense of destiny. You are like a seed, which would grow and sprout up slowly and continue developing in this way. Or we can say, you will find something from the outside world and let them into your vision. I would believe this, because Firefinger was an interesting poet to me at that time. I like poems quite much, this is one thing. The other is, I like people who have disorders of consciousness.

L: Does he really have disordered consciousness?

J: He’s schizoid since 1975.

L: He was already arrested by then?

J: Not arrested. He was treated.

L: There are many versions about this. Some say that he was arrested and locked in a psychiatric hospital.

J: I’m not sure if it was 1975 or not. I have to check. In 1998 he was 50. He had written many poems and was really a genius in art. He was pessimistic and frail. But he stressed the hope at the same time. So he could move those educated youth right away. The educated youth at that time didn’t live a happy life. And Firefinger was like an inner leader for them. He was strong enough to inspire them. But why did he break down? Why would I like people with disordered consciousness? I assume schizophrenia is something that genius would have. At that time I was quite interested in what schizoids write and their connection with genius.

L: When you filmed this, did you find other reality about living? For example about his treatment, his family and difficulties? Do you have interests in this?

J: I actually filmed his family, his father. I focused on the poem. But if I film it now, it would be totally different of course. At that time I was interested in the relation between his condition and poem.

L: Did you continue it? How long did it take?

J: No. The process was intermittent.

L: When he was in front of you or your camera, was he uncooperative or something like that?

J: No. He could talk to people quite well and he would often read poem to others.

L: You made this in 1998. Do you think that it is far away from his legendary age? Can he accept this?

J: He could. South Weekend interviewed him in 2003 and reported his condition, because he was still conscious. He said himself that he is a nut and because of this he could do whatever he wants. From this point, he was quite conscious.

L: He didn’t go mad?

J: Sometimes. At least I think so, because every time I went to visit him, he was okay. I heard he had onset some times and even quite serious. Sometimes he lost control during the filmmaking. But I think every one might fall in this situation while having a conversation. For example if we continue the conversation between you and me, till a point, we would also feel headache. That’s for sure. I even filmed his talk, but I didn’t mix it in the film. However when it came to emotions or politics, he would say something strange, like he would say: ‘Do you know why my name is Lusheng GUO?’, you will feel that it’s very mysterious, maybe it has some connections with the national secrets that would be inspired when it comes to emotional and political topics.

L: This type of legendary works of Lusheng GUO is more like a control of the spirit. It doesn’t have any temporary prescriptive effects.

Zhijie QIU said it well. He said the surveys and exhibitions Yongbing HUANG made as he began with his Bat Plans are lack of the feeling of flying. When he saw the bat carrying a decreased plane wing, he said the work is flying.

The subjects about Firefinger just now are about our mental hearth on the one hand and about the temporary living problems on the other hand. They are all about “human”, which is a way of looking at oneself. Firefinger could be more mental, it could be crazy, so that I have nothing at all. But how would you explain Our Love?

J: I think there are similarities, both physical and metal. I focus more on the mental stuff and the interaction between body and mind.

L: Is Our Love about the gender?

J: Yeah. But it’s not male or female. It something in between or a third field, that is non-male and non-female.

L: For me, the huge transformation on the body in Our Love must base on a strong spiritual support. Or else it would be like cutting yourself with a knife.

J: They need more courage to do this in China.

L: I’m also very interested in this. But I think there’s a question. Is it a social attitude towards the castration for men or is it a social transformation into a more peaceful phase? I’m interested because I also know this kind of people, especially in 2000. They didn’t mind being asked about gender questions, the meaning of being a man or woman. I was shocked. The physical transformation is only secondary, which yet will strengthen your physical and spiritual tenses. The way they look at identification and gender is quite interesting.

J: The characters in Our Love are different from those, who have read a lot like college students or have their own business. The latter see this with a very independent attitude as a challenge to the gender politics. The people I filmed are under social pressure. They would not see it as a independent attitude, yet more like a struggle for living. Their fight is in fact quite passive and tragic. After the filmmaking at dinner, I asked them, if their children are like them what would they think of? They drank a bit and said truthfully that they would choke them to death.

L: Why that?

J: They don’t have strong self-consciousness. They could only live in this way under such circumstances. To live poorly is better than to die. If I were they, I would also choose this attitude towards live, maybe even more tragic. There are not really many chances for them to talk. They are not prominent persons in this society. They belong to the lowest class. They themselves also think this way. They said they are at the bottom of the lowest.

L: There is no spiritual outlet, so they could only change the physical conditions?

J: In fact, to change the body is also to give in. It’s better to be a woman than to be something between man and woman. If they overdo, then they would be a complete yielder. If they get more money, they could change their private parts too. Then it is a complete change of them.

L: From a intruder to a condition of being intruded.

J: From a intruder to a condition of being intruded? That doesn't work for them, because they’ve never been a intruder, they have always been intruded. They are also mentally oppressed. There is no change.

L: Speaking of this, many feminists believe, according to the biological condition, men are intruders while women are the ones who are intruded. Many feminists believe, when the body position changes, this hypothesis will also be overthrew. Many people believe some certain kind of body position while having sex means women are determined to be inferior. But some positions may allow women to feel superior. It overthrows the simple definition of being intruded.

J: You said it too easily. If you name the intruder gobbler, it would still be superior in the end.

L: It can also be understood in this way. But I assume it’s from the sense of self-identification. The other is from the social angle of you. There are two kinds of ego. One is you in your own eyes, the other is you in the others’ eyes. So I like the film Our Love, it could offer some thing from a different level. Either the thing is not spoken or is the expressed feeling very nice. This is a bit like a documentary movie of different meanings, because these two movies are both made in a way of filming documentary films. Different documentary films are different quotations. It doesn't want to tell you that this event has taken place at this time or gradually try to induce their emotions. I think it is okay like this. After that did you develop this?

J: No.

L: Madonna?

J: Oh, that’s a moment of The Moment. There are many moments in The Moment. I called these “several minutes of human”.

L: Why you want this series or this so-called series?

J: At that time Shenzhen was much different in the sense of a city like Beijing. The density of people there and the mingled grade were higher than Beijing. Beijing was divided into several districts, but the sense of division was not so strong there. The density was also higher than Beijing. And the systems in Shenzhen at that time were quite confusing. So many people went there in hope of success or making money. They would have some instinctive reactions, which under such social conditions could also be defined as the reactions to the system at that time. I also wanted to make photograph series with certain themes, in the way of record of actual events. But later on, I felt that the usage of dynamic image could present this state better, because pictures couldn’t express the timeliness, which I wanted. For example, if you want to present an image, it might be sufficient, but when you continue to the third image, the former ones are related to present a state. So, the filmed materials are not long, some only lasts several tens of seconds, most of them are also two to three minutes. At that I was thinking to collect several minutes of a number of people.

L: Among this series of works there are two pieces that I don’t know well. One of your works called MuMu, of course you’ve also written a novel with the same name. The little puppet in MuMu grows into a mature Mumu (a real person) later on. I think this is hard to categorize to what we’ve discussed just now. MuMu has some self-innuendoes and self-incarnation in it. I’d like very much to hear you talk about it.

J: When I was making MuMu, the consideration about social reality was not that clear at that time. I cared more about my own state and emotions. At the beginning, Mumu is a deposit of loneliness, because you can see it as a partner when you travel. To take photos of Mumu or to write about it was basically tend to be in a fairy tale way at that time, though the writing is completed by creating some small images or a short story. My state was quite simple and pure then.

L: It took long til you finished this piece. After so many years, as partner, you have now wife and child. Does the partnership of Mumu still exist?

J: In fact, since 2006 I haven’t done that. I went to Finland in 2006 and the last time was then there. Of course at the very beginning I was quite innocent, but after I went to Shenzhen it was getting complicated. I got into the magazine office, I felt the reality I had to face. It was in fact hard to find a place with a quality suggestive of poetry or painting. There was more about construction, development and about the city itself.

L: Did you have this kind of feeling when you went to Shenzhen? From school to Beijing, then from Beijing to Shenzhen, was it a process of your chasing your dream? Why you went to Shenzhen?

J: I had always wanted to go to Shenzhen, but it didn’t work out. I went to Shenzhen in 1995, because it was then different from other places. It was quite unique, so I wanted to go. But at that time, it would have been not so good if I went there at once. There were not many artists there and neither the atmosphere of making arts. If I would have been there for all the time, I would have been a chief editor of some magazine office, or a TV producer. I would have become one in this field. It is terrible even to think of. Fortunately I stayed in Beijing after graduation. And only after I had some achievements in arts, I went to Shenzhen. If I went to Shenzhen immediately after graduation and stayed there ever since, I would have a different life. Just because I didn’t go at that time, the charm remains. After the revocation of the office in 1998, the house in Beijing had also to be returned. Then, the Shenzhen office asked me if I wanted to come back to Shenzhen, because they had arranged everything and bought a house already. But I didn’t know how the house looks like, so I wanted to go and see.

L: This is quite interesting. You’ve never been to Shenzhen, right? You went there from Beijing directly. So why there’s “come back to”. Why this come back?

J: Because I was registered there.

L: These special experiences are because of your registration?

J: I went back to the company in Shenzhen because the company I worked for and my registered permanent residence were both there.

L: Until when you stayed in Shenzhen?

J: Until 2005.

L: You came back to Beijing in 2005, and then stayed at Hua LIU?

J: Yes.

L: How did you come to the idea of getting back? You left in 1998, right? I consider you more or less an artist of Shenzhen.

J: I’m a person who reconciles himself to the situation. I won’t like to stay in one place for long or want to go to one place extremely much. Shenzhen was quite attractive to me at that time. Besides there were also other objective opportunities, like the house was already there, while my place in Beijing was handed in along with the revocation of the office. There were new adjustments and new work assignments after the revocation. Many things happened under such condition. It was the same when I came to Beijing in 2005. I worked for Phoenix Weekly several years before, and they moved to Beijing in 2005. They asked me whether I’d like to come. I said no, they asked then what I would do. The magazine office in Shenzhen was no longer there. It was kind of like a resignation. After that, there was a businessman who I knew before during DV activities. He wanted to set up a website, and I went to talk to him. He wanted to set up a video website, but I said I knew nothing about computer. He said it was not necessary to know computer. I mentioned one possibility. There are plenty movie fans. We could create an online platform. People could send us their scripts. Directors and actors could be selected through the web. We could fund them, they make the video and send us the completed piece. No matter what those who have the dream of making films could realize there dream in this way. It was once for us to get several thousands to make a short video when we started. I think this is a good way, and it could help many people. When we set up the website, there was actually already an office in Shenzhen. Everything was there. After several days, they said to do this, we’d better go to Beijing. So, that is, we came to Beijing. When the magazine first moved to Beijing, I was unhappy to come. There was another reason for this, I felt that I would not like to go into the journalist field. I could not be a good journalist. It is different from being an artist.

L: The website project didn’t last long?

J: It was actually quite long, until June 2007.

L: Two years?

J: More than one year. I came to Beijing at the end of 2006, in December.

L: I remember that we’ve talked about the plans. I made an expensive one for you.

J: To build this website, we spent lots of money, more than 10 Mio RMB. Actually it would be nice to build according to my plans. First is to widen the roads, we collect one to two hundred groups, then we select around ten teams to strengthen the support, which could in fact make films with high quality. Then we should find two or three among them that are outstandingly talented. We’ll help them make a long video. All the other common authors we could simply support them to make one or two videos, then it would be enough. Later on, the website set a standard for the quantity and tries to create a fair opportunity for everyone without difference. But like this, we invested twenty to at most forty movies in one month, and it lasted one and a half years, around twenty months. We could easily run out of money in this way. But there was no real relationship built with the elite ones. My partner is against the concept of elite. He wants to build a complete folk creation platform. I can do nothing about it.

L: 400 films.

J: Yes. 400 films, probably more than 200 groups. My plan was to select 20 of them, and let them cooperate with television to make teleplays or something like that. Then we choose 3 or 5 among them, invest them continuously, like 200,000 or 300,000 RMB. After two or threes years they should be able to make longer pieces.

L: It is much like in Japan: before you make teleplay or films, you could make for some time videos, using normal home-use video-tape.

J: They would rather skip this phase. They think the changes here in China happen too swiftly. They won’t risk on this. So they chose a common way, in hope of increasing the number of user.

L: They want to have the money right away, right?

J: Not really. They just wanted to do the things right and just wanted to increase the user number.

L: To increase the user number should not be your task. I think you are an expert in the contents.

J: Because they didn’t accept my concept. They insisted on more investments. Sometimes they would invest up to 50 movies in a month. He thought this would pull more investments in. But this is not consequential. Later on, there was no money, so we had nothing. Just because he said he wanted to invest 50 videos each month, I said I would be exhausted to die. I couldn’t take it, because I had to go through all of the scripts. I read several hundred scripts every month. In 2007 I said I would not take the salary any more, but was still responsible for the quality and selection of the scripts. I didn’t go to the company, I had others read the scripts first, and then they would send me some good ones. I was out like this gradually. In June I was quitted completely.

L: I went to your studio in 2007. You made lots of silica gel installations. But now many exhibitions of yours don’t follow this string. For example during the exhibition No, No at Tang Contemporary Art Center and at Liberia Contemporary Art Center, I found your exhibition itself is a piece of work. I had this kind of feeling that the exhibition is a work. We can’t define your videos, we cannot view them separately. The changing characters and little feather and the silica gel installation on the floor at the exhibition at Marella Gallery are also alike. So we cannot see them as single piece. When we view them together, I’d rather think that the exhibition itself is a complete work.

J: An individual exhibition it is indeed an independent and self-sufficient form of work. Are you asking why there’s no clear lead in this?

L: For me, your exhibition and your individual creations are two different things. It is like when the works being exhibited, it’s really hard to find out your main string. And when you see the single piece, then there’s an outer clue for it. But to watch the exhibition is another system.

J: Actually I’m talking with a friend about the system question. I talked quite well. We are both interested in how an artist runs away, from one system to another new one. He will not go into an already-made system, it is rather a brand new system. I think this is what an artist supposed to do. This is how they keep their productivity. We talked much, some topics are about whether the works being powerful enough. You’ve also mentioned that my work is in real not very concrete. They are not big works, or powerful works, like those of Damien Hirst or Jeff Koons, they both have clear-cut characters or clues. Powerful works offer people no way to run off. Both the audience and the artist himself would be controlled by its power and strength. You run away, but in fact you cannot. This is true. When you see a powerful piece of work, you will naturally follow it and try to figure out what it means according to this. But for the audience, it’s very difficult to escape from this run-away phase to a thinking phase, or a feeling phase. It is the same for the artist himself. He may continue do this kind of work in decades within the same system. I think this is a big problem.

L: What kind of problem?

J: In the end it is no longer creation, but rather a copy, because you’ve been strengthening the system. This is not a creative activity.

L: I could understand this. This system is defined by the outer works. This is exactly what I’m interested in. It’s hard to read your spirit through the outer objects. You described it accurately just now. Now many artists have already turned the outer system into inner ones. I also feel like that they are losing their productivity. If the outer things are built by the strength or power of the spirit, I think you still have another possibility. When the thing is already built up, and you keep building it afterwards, then your spiritual symbol is this. But is this creation? Is this what an artist should do? You talked about the run-away problem, I think is really an interesting topic. But it is on the condition of how you escape. I care more about the individual, that is, you Zhi JIANG yourself, why you want to run away, or what do you escape from?

J: Only when you escape can you produce something new like new problems. And only then can you find out new directions. If you don’t run away from this system, you would be controlled by it.

L: What is the system you mentioned? Please explain it. What kind of system is it that you want to escape from?

J: For example it would become an old problem or an out-of-date creation method, or an obsolete feeling system.

L: We talked about this online once, about the absence of the body.

J: It is also an old, deposited conception. Many works that focused on this question were quite new at that time. In fact, new arts haven’t found the novelty. Few people have realized this. Some are just repeating the questions from others and cannot get out of this. I think this is the most pathetic thing.

L: So what’s your recent question?

J: Because there are more and more things done, you would build up your own system gradually. To observe this system, to question it and to pick out its potential problems and then to think about this time after time, are urgent to me now, because only then can new problems come out.

L: Have you ever thought of to research this system? When we compare the number of artists now with that of before, it is obvious that now there are much more artists. For example the system of gallery, system of museum, commercial system, and even other systems, is it necessary for artists to do research about these systems to know them better?

J: I think it is necessary to think about all of these aspects. How they are connected to each other and how they influence the creation. When it is allowed, it’s better to think about these.

L: We talked about the absence of the body on the internet. You hardly put your body into the creation, do you? The symbolized self begins to fade, is this as well a kind of run-away?

J: Because from a philosophic point of view, selfhood is not a firm conception from the very beginning. Zhijie QIU mentioned in one article long ago that selfhood in fact is a paradox. If you could judge that selfhood is a real self, then you must create a self first to observe it, define it. But what will judge and define this split self? So you have to split another self. In the end you’ll find out that this is a paradox, like a joke. So I didn’t rely on my own body or my own things first.

L: The so-called absence of selfhood.

J: I didn’t trust the reaction from my body. So normally I use the bodies of others. The simulation body is also others’ body.

L: I want to ask you if you are confusing this on purpose, because in many of your works you also showed your body, or to say there’s the possibility of showing your body. But now you delete it deliberately. How have you achieved this real total absence? It should be difficult.

J: It was not so clear. I didn’t get you.

L: Obviously you made the presence of the body on purpose, why? I talked with Zhijie QIU long ago about this topic. The presence of artists could be achieved by many special ways. As for the works like performance arts, the hired model and the artist himself are definitely different.

J: So I said I didn’t make lots of movements, except in Laden, where my body showed up but with a mask.

L: You hided yourself intentionally with a mask, why that?

J: Because I wanted to have more contacts with people, to have direct experimental communications. This is what I could accept. I would think that I’m acting and playing a role.

L: Playing a role?

J: Right. I was playing a beggar.

L: Has the economic circumstances improved when you returned to Beijing in 2007? Because there’s some business of your works?

J: Yes, but Shenzhen was much better.

L: How do you see this? Now you have many exhibitions. I look at the pictures and know that they are for sale. To buy videos is also possible. But many of your exhibitions and many of your works are not that easy to sell. How do you deal with it, when there’s no compromise with the commercial system? There’s always something there. And it’s unlikely that we don’t give in to this commercial system. There are some compromises on this commercial system, and there aren’t any too. How do you maintain yourself like this? The self I mean is the independence of you.

J: When I first arrived, also now I think I don’t go extremes like you described. I’m not against commerce. But the premier thing I consider is that the works are done by my will. It is not to say that I intend to make something but don’t want to sell it. This is another thought of creation, but I don’t have this kind of thinking.

L: So you don’t categorize what can be sold well?

J: No. I don’t intend to make something that cannot be sold. Or else you could simply don’t sell it. You can make something that can really sell well, but you can also choose not to sell it.

L: This is not so absolute as you said. I asked some gallery operators about what can sell well. They said the bestseller is pictures and second one is photos, then videos. But it’s not for sure, if they can be sold or not. Under such situation, does the commercial possibility shrink when you make videos? Let alone when you make large-scale installations. I really can’t imagine who will buy it. It is the same with gallery operators. They need to find good projects. But it could also be a nightmare for them. Who will buy this in the end, they also have no clue. So for artists, they would not go extremes and say that they don’t sell their works. After one piece is done, it must go into the circulation of the society. Goods for money, and then money for goods. But most of the time when the work is placed in a standard exhibition space, and when the work go into the social level, it is almost for sure that it will be handled. If not, then there must be many reasons for this. For example you can set up a photograph exhibition, which may conclude only photos of yours. Then I think this can sell better, if there are only photographs. But many of your exhibitions are also hard to sell. Then it’s not a question of whether you want to sell it or not, it is appreciated from the viewers’ experiences.

J: Yes. And also there are personal interests. I like to make videos, take photos and set up installations. I want to do what kind of works now, and why the gallery agrees. The former ones are well sold, so they think there might be some hope. I think this is quite important. If you are really an artist, whose works are badly sold, then you would be in trouble, because then they will not accept, they might think that it is possible to sell it.

L: Are those installations sold in the end?

J: No.

L: When the commercial atmosphere is in relatively good condition, galleries are playing a risky role. But they would like to share the joys of adventures with artists. They don’t confine you totally and say my gallery only sells paintings.

J: I think for those things the economic base is required. Galleries must have economic basis to have exhibitions within a period of time and support related works. If a gallery doesn’t have economic foundation, then it would not be able to make such a choice. But it is not to say that you need lots of money to finish one piece of work. I think there’re many possibilities, also when the economic condition looks bleak.

L: How big are the chances?

J: Enormous. It is not to estimate.

L: How many exhibitions you have this year?

J: Two or three. In fact just one, but it consists of two or three parts and be exhibited in two or three places. I’m not able to and also there’s no need for more exhibitions.

Apr 23, 2009